Author: Lucie Sýkorová, HlidaciPes.org, Czech republic
INTERVIEW. Twice in a row, he infiltrated conspiracy theorists and right-wing extremists for several months. German theatre director Tobias Ginsburg has been trying to understand who these people are and why they believe what they believe. He also witnessed how Russian support works in these groups. And he has written two books about his experiences.
Between 2017 and 2018, Ginsburg lived among the so-called Reichsbürger (Realm citizens) for eight months. He was in this environment again during the covid pandemic, a time when there were protests against government measures.
Today, he warns against labelling right-wing extremists and conspiracy theorists as crazy or stupid. „Then you lose them as people altogether – you don’t drive dangerous ideas out of them, but rather harden them. We can only fight these ideologies with empathy,“ he believes.
During your missions, did you find out who the so-called Reichsbürger are?
It’s a very diverse group. There are esotericists, strange people from religious sects, supporters of conspiracy theories, members of the AfD party and classic neo-Nazis. Although I have lived among these people, I don’t actually know who the Reichsbürger are – are we talking about a group of neo-Nazi bikers who wanted to build their own country in Thuringia? Or are we talking about people who believe in angels? Or about politicians from the AfD? I’ve met university teachers and the unemployed and the uneducated, rich and poor, people from the East and the West, men and women… It’s about ideas and ideology. In general, I think that the very term “Reichsbürger”, which is used to describe these people, but which is simply not sufficient, is a problem.
So what could these people be called collectively?
They are right-wing radical conspiracy theorists who are found throughout society. Reichsbürger is the name these people have given themselves. The term originated in the 1980s from the famous neo-Nazi Horst Mahler. Their ideology comes from the original Nazis, who of course did not like the demise of the German Empire and the creation of the BRD (Bundesrepublik Deutschland, unofficial abbreviation for the Federal Republic of Germany, ed.). From the beginning, they claimed that the BRD was not a real German state, and many conspiracy theories arose on this basis. These are not new ideas, but they have become more widespread again since the 1960s.
In last couple of weeks saw the start of a giant trials against a group of so-called Reichsbürger around Prince Reuss who allegedly planned a coup in Germany. How dangerous do you think these people were, and what importance do you attach to this trial?
Again, the group around Prince Reuss includes a range of people from esoterics to neo-Nazis to former soldiers, for example, a former judge and an AfD MP. People often laugh at them, saying that they are a group of madmen who believe in angels and so on. Yes, on the one hand it is ridiculous, but at the same time – we can see in this trial that Germany has still not come to terms with its past. National Socialism had deep esoteric roots, its main symbol was the swastika, another important symbol was the black sun. This does not mean that every neo-Nazi is esoteric, but the ideology is very close to it. I think this process – the crackdown on this group – is very important. Of course, it is nonsense that such a coup would succeed. But these people would send a very dangerous signal that they are willing to kill and die for these ideas. It would reinforce others in their belief in conspiracy theories, inspire perhaps emulation.
Have you met any of them personally?
Of those whose names have been published, I have not met anyone directly, but it is quite possible that I met someone in the wider circle. But it has to be said that there are a number of such groups. It happens that in these groups people dream about whether it would be possible to stage a coup. During and after the covid pandemic, the radicalisation of these groups increased. During my second infiltration, I was among those who were organising a big protest against the lockdown in Berlin in August 2020. This eventually turned into an attack on the Bundestag. That was not planned. It’s hard to say whether anyone in that crowd at that moment thought that there might actually be a coup. And it’s not even relevant. What matters is that they sent the signal. And that strengthened other similar groups, which in the course of time might have gotten guns, and in another such action people might have died.
According to official figures, the number of people in these groups has been increasing in recent years. What explains this?
First, there is now a greater demand around the world for authoritarian regimes, for clear simple answers. The way of right-wing conspiracy theories is on offer, whether it is America, Poland or France. Whenever there is a crisis, this demand is greater. But secondly, I think that the number of people seeking out conspiracy theories is not rising that steeply. Rather, we used to ignore it and just laugh it off. Moreover, it is still difficult to determine these numbers; 23,000 is of course an estimate of those who openly subscribe to these ideologies. But there will be many more who do not speak out.
Have you come across any links between these people and Russia?
Officially, it is known that the AfD party, for example, has often been invited to the Kremlin, including to Putin’s philosopher Alexander Dugin. Unofficially, then, there is talk that right-wing radical or esoteric groups and identity movements have often received financial support from people like the oligarch Konstantin Malofeev, through an initiative called the Black International. In Germany, the right-wing radical and conspiratorial magazine Compact, which has strong links to Russia, is published. This propaganda is very strong. The magazine also organises various events, such as Peace with Russia, trips to Russia to lay wreaths as part of ‘Russian-German friendship’, etc. When Russia wants to weaken the EU and the US, supporting these groups is a very easy way. I write quite a lot about these ties to Russia in my second book, The Last Men of the West, which came out after I spent a year with anti-feminist fundamentalists.
Why do you think the ideas of right-wing extremism are still hitting fertile ground in Europe?
We have an education problem in this regard, I would call it almost an emergency. We need to explain to young people what right-wing extremism is. If we do not know what it looks like, how do we want to win the fight against it? We had a huge demonstration in Germany against right-wing extremism, three million people took to the streets. That is great, but how many of them know how right-wing radicalism really works? Education has failed in this respect, but so has politics.
What do you think about the ban on the AfD that is being discussed?
I think that would not be good at this point. But there are smaller affiliates of the AfD that are clearly extremist, and they could and should be banned.
Are you planning another book or an “undercover” mission?
Both. The mission is going on now and the book should be out early next year. It’s about fanatism again, though this time of a different kind.
